Building a better demon

[Finarvyn]

I came across this post by Arref in the thread about using Shadow Knight or not.

arref said:

Using both Shadow Knight and the orig rule book, but adding many things developed in web campaigns and from other GMs.

Also skipping Shadow Knight stuff like demon builds and construct builds.

It occurs to me that I hear a lot about how the construct rules are broken, and when I look over the rules for demons I can never decide how demon attributes are supposed to compare to other attributes on the shadow-chaos-amber-ranked scale.

One option, of course, is to simply not use these rules in the manner suggested by Arref. However, it seems like rules for demons and constructs could use a good overhaul and maybe with some tweaks and revisions would be workable along with the rest of the system.

So ... what can be done?

[Arref]

Well, I should have said this in the other thread: I use the existing items/artifact rules to make demons/constructs/supernaturals and it works just fine.

This also keeps a structure of ranks that ties back to normal PC ranks.

What I keep a close eye on:
1. ranks and story impact, don't allow ranks without understanding back story and how it fits into the universe
2. ranks and PC competence, most PC rankings should be higher than items/artifacts

[Dilvish]

In the "item creation" rules they don't really seem to give numbers that match the ranks. How do you compare the numbers to the attributes?

[Arref]

There is a rank structure implied on the items/artifact page when you look at Vitality and Combat mastery.

1: plus Mortal rank
2: plus Chaos rank
4: plus Amber rank

Note that most PCs would still come in above "plus Amber rank" in Attributes.

[matausch]

Like Arref, I use the item/artifact rules to build demons. That is, if I'm in the mood for so much fuss.

Most of the time, I have a pretty good feeling for the needs and expectations of the players, and whether an enemy or NPC should be stronger or weaker, for the sake of satisfying and interesting play.

So no, I don't use the demon construction rules,
yes, I use the item/artifact rules instead,
and yes, most of the time there's lots of handwaving and drama-oriented decision-making without resorting to the item/artifact or demon rules.

[Finarvyn]

Interesting that you would mention that you use the item/artifact rules for demon construction, because those are rules which I often hear players complain are most "broken".

Maybe this is for another thread, but do you find that the item/artifact rules work well as written, or do you tweak them a little?

[Arref]

Here's a sample of how to get a clean interpretation of the rules.

home.comcast.net/~arrefmak/smart.htm