Elder points by bloodline

[Finarvyn]

I had this idea which I haven't totally worked through yet, but I thought I would share to see if anyone else found it interesting.

Those of the blood of Amber or the blood of the Courts are special and "real" while those of Shadow are not as real. Only those with substance can handle the Pattern or the Logrus (although perhaps lesser beings can handle a Broken Pattern). This might suggest that as the bloodline thins out, characters would be less and less able to handle these powers.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Generation One (Example: Dworkin)
Assume that Dworkin is 100% Chaos, so we'll build his character out of a full 500 points.

Generation Two (Example: Oberon)
Oberon was born prior to the creation of the Pattern, so one might conjecture that the only beings who could be his parents could be those of Chaos. We know that Dworkin is of Chaos and we can speculate that Oberon's mother was as well, so no thinning of the bloodline yet. Oberon would be built out of a full 500 points as well.

Generation Three (Example: Corwin)
Here things begin to get interesting. At this point, the Pattern has been inscribed so Amber exists and as Amber casts its shadows we get the various layers of non-real beings who pop up. Oberon (like Zeus in the Greek mythology) likes to dally with regular folk and has several children with shadow-mothers. At this point we could build those of Corwin's generation (Brand, Caine, Benedict, Gerard, etc) out of 50% of the points because Corwin (et all) is a half-breed. Generation Three characters might be built at 250 points.

Generation Four (sons and daughters of G3)
Assuming that these characters have one Amber parent and one shadow parent, this might imply that these characters would be built out of about 125 points. This is most likely the generation where player characters would come from.

[Finarvyn]

Merlin is particularly problematic. The issue here deals with his parents. Corwin (250) and Dara (??) would average out to make an unknown number of character points for Merlin.

Let's look at Dara. If she's a full Lady of Chaos she would be built at 500 points, but I don't get the sense that she's that much stronger than Corwin so I don't like that solution.

On the other hand, Dara claimed that Benedict was her grandmother's father, or great-grandfather. This could mean that she was actually a G6 (Benedict would be G3, Benedict's daughter a G4, grand-daughter a G5, great-granddaughter a G6), which would put her more like (250 -> 125 -> 62.5 -> 31.25) 31 point character.

This seems pretty low, particularly in light of some of the things that Dara does in the Merlin series, but if true it would mean that Corwin (250) and Dara (31.25) would produce a Merlin who would stat out with 140 points.

Actually, 140 points for Merlin isn't that bad. It would put him above all of his 125-point G4 peers and give him some extra points to put into sorcery and some of those other Chaos powers he picked up along the way.

[serendipity]

Can I throw a spanner in the works? When Caine wrestled his own shadow, it was clear that the shadow Caine wasn't too much weaker than he was. So shadow versions must be weaker than the originals, but how much weaker? If I wanted to play a shadow Amberite (not that my DM would probably let me), how many points would I get compared to the original? What if I'm offspring of a shadow version of an Amberite? Is it still just a mathematical average of parents' points? After all, they aren't really Amberites at all....

[nihilisticmind]

I wouldn't give any shadowling more than 0 points to be built off of. That allows for broken pattern or minor powers and perhaps one stat above amber rank.

I think because the shadow of Caine gave him trouble is simply because anyone with amber rank in one of their stats will give an elder trouble. Caine didn't imagine for an instant that he would perish from the confrontation, did he?

Fin, your system seems to explain the amounts of points used in the ADRP book quite well. But I like the idea that Dworkin is not as powerful as Oberon, and that Merlin (as in the Merlin series) can actually overcome Dara and Mandor (Two chaosians, one with a mixed heritage with Amber, like Merlin).

Also, would most Chaos lords be built with 500 points, like Dworkin? I'm having trouble with how that would figure in your equation...

[Finarvyn]

nihilisticmind said:

Fin, your system seems to explain the amounts of points used in the ADRP book quite well. But I like the idea that Dworkin is not as powerful as Oberon, and that Merlin (as in the Merlin series) can actually overcome Dara and Mandor (Two chaosians, one with a mixed heritage with Amber, like Merlin).

Also, would most Chaos lords be built with 500 points, like Dworkin? I'm having trouble with how that would figure in your equation...

Well, those are really good questions and I'm not sure I have a good answer for them. I was trying initially to come up with a logical rational reason why certain Elders had more or fewer points, and bloodline seemed like as good a starting point as any.

A few options:

1. It is possible that "experience" could be factored in so that a "high level" NPC might have more points that the number suggested by the bloodline.

2. It is possible that we don't yet know enough about certain characters and their background -- so if a particular NPC seems more or less powerful than their bloodline might suggest, perhaps there are some oddities in their lineage that we haven't looked at. For example, the "typical Chaos lord" nowadays might not have as pure a bloodline as might have been present for older Chaosians who lived in the pre-Pattern days. Once Shadows appeared, perhaps Chaos NPCs visited them and had kids so that many of the current lords are weaker and no longer of "pure" blood.

What do you think?

[Finarvyn]

To continue my own thought, Shadow people such as Julia Barnes might have some sort of unknown "real" blood hidden somewhere in her background. That would explain why she had enough points for "broken pattern" and "sorcery" because she wasn't as shadow-y as we thought.

[nihilisticmind]

That's a good point. And perhaps the real blood didn't awaken its potential until Merlin came along.

It's the great mystery of the universe when it comes to shadowfolks I guess: Are they bastard amberites many times removed due to fornicating in shadow etc... OR do they become real (and stronger, healthier etc, like Bill Roth) because of their contact with people and things and places of substance?

[serendipity]

What if Amberites exude an aura which facilitates other Amberites discovering and using their own talents? Thus any Amberite would naturally be much stronger in Amber proper, where there would be the greatest concentration of helpful auras. That would also explain how Julia could suddenly have an ability to do something for which she'd displayed no previous talent. She just needed the boost of another Amberite to get started.

[nihilisticmind]

Do you mean shadowlings would be influenced by said aura, or that she is in fact an amberite waiting to be discovered?

I like to think of Julia as a regular human being... Nothing in the novels lead me to believe that she was an amberite.

[Finarvyn]

If Julia is a regular human being, does that mean that any regular human might be able to master Broken Pattern and/or Sorcery?

I like the notion that Julia's exposure to Merlin made her more "real" than other humans in Shadow Earth. I think that RZ implies that Corwin's Avalon is more real than other shadows because he dwelt there for so many years, and by extension this might extend to Julia because of her proximity to Merlin.

[nihilisticmind]

admin said:

If Julia is a regular human being, does that mean that any regular human might be able to master Broken Pattern and/or Sorcery?

That's the idea. She's an exceptional shadowling.

admin said:

I like the notion that Julia's exposure to Merlin made her more "real" than other humans in Shadow Earth. I think that RZ implies that Corwin's Avalon is more real than other shadows because he dwelt there for so many years, and by extension this might extend to Julia because of her proximity to Merlin.

A relationship to an amberite is definitely the way to become more real. My old GM used to rule that if an amberite had a physical relationship with a shadowling, that shadowling was automatically real and that their importance would grow (stats, abilities).

But yes, I consider Broken Pattern and Sorcery lesser powers, therefore something shadowfolks could potentially be initiated into.

[Dilvish]

I'm not sure about the way you assigned numbers to the generations. I mean, of course Dworkin and Oberon get more points. And Martin gets fewer. Somehow age (and experience) have to factor into the process.

But to dilute the points by 50% each time an Amberite breeds with a shadow person seems a little off. Remember that Shadow folk are really at -100 because each attribute starts at -25. As such, wouldn't the points in your model fall off even faster. (I.e. a 500 averaged with a -100 gives 200, not the 250 you describe.)

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure if the numbers are right.

[Finarvyn]

I'll have to ponder what you suggest.
My model: 500 ... 250 ... 125
Your model: 500 ... 200 ... 50

It just seems to drop off rather quickly, If I understand what you're suggesting.

Erick's original ADRP rulebook seems to group characters more like this:
Erick's model: 400-500 ... 200-300 .... 100

ADRP tries to have a more gradual dropoff from one generation to the next. I was just hoping to "explain" it from a genetic bloodline idea, and I wanted something that wasn't that far from Erick's.

[xenomancer]

Would spending stuff be a way of increasing reality for player or gm chosen shadow dwellers?

[Finarvyn]

Nov 9, 2009 23:37:25 GMT -5 xenomancer said:

Would spending stuff be a way of increasing reality for player or gm chosen shadow dwellers?

An interesting notion. I always assumed that things become more "real" when exposed to Amberites.

Explain more what you are thinking about when you say that "spending stuff" might increae reality. Do characters "spend" stuff in your campaign, and if so what do they get in return?